The Spirit in Plants

[mrmojorisin]

I've been considering the question of the whereabouts of the spirit in plants for some time now and I've been trying for months to build up some momentum to write about it.

Back in the 70s I read Robert Anton Wilson's Cosmic Trigger. I'm sure now, looking back on it after 30 odd years that much of what RAW wrote was mostly hip hype, but his views that absolute belief narrows the mind have stuck with me.

The debate on belief is a complex one, for example, to say one doesn't believe in X is actually, of course, a belief in itself. We all have to have a model of what we believe, but, as I read recently, the latest model psychologists have of good robust mental health is the ability to modify or completely change ones belief system immediately one receives more evidence to support that change.

So when I say that I don't believe in god, I don't believe in the supernatural, I don't believe in destiny as the future does not yet exist, I hope that you'll take the word “believe” with a large pinch of salt.

Like I say I don't believe in the supernatural, but I certainly believe Nature is Super and there are a great many things for us yet to understand. And when I was looking at some tropical fish the other day the thought came to me that these little critters can't possibly know what is in the street outside. So, at another level, we human beings probably, actually very likely, can't possibly know what's in our street outside, or even know where that street possibly may be.

It's my “belief” that entheogens may, with appropriate use, may be able to show us to some extent something of the secrets of that street outside.

So, this is where I'm coming from.

It's often said that chimpanzees, in a genetic sense, are 95% the same as us. I guess they're are right, but, in the same sense, you could same that we are 85% genetically the same as a cabbage. The chemistry of life is likely universal . We all evolved from the same basic handful of a small number of common atoms, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium forming the vastest proportion formed deep within exploding ancient supernova (Joni Mitchell got it right y'know) . It's easy to see that the DNA of everything living on earth is almost the same in a chemical sense.

The molecules we see in our favored entheogens are made from the same elements of life within plants being in fact fragments of the basic strands of DNA that form all of us. Ironically (or maybe not so ironic) the plants formed these fragments over many millenia of evolution in order to avoid being eaten and so survive. The fragments are the alkaloids that actually taste bitter and awful so that critters (with the exception of humans) won't eat them.

It seems then that these alkaloids conveniently match up with receptor sites within our brains like some sort of amazing cosmic jigsaw puzzle and give us some degree of visibilty of what may lie in that street outside in some miraculous way that we yet don't fully understand, but one day we will.

So we could say that the spirit of plants lies deep with the structure of the chemistry that is the very basis of life itself. But, on the other hand, we have also discovered other chemistries that are synthetic in nature, some more potent than the ones created within the plants we know and that are capable of taking us to even more more blocks of streets outside.

So just what / where is this spirit in plants? Or is it the spirit in the chemistry?

Or perhaps more importantly, who has the the A to Z ?

[ParasitesOfTheSoul]

Nicely done Mojo.
Been trying to construct a worthy reply, which I will hopefully do.
Meanwhile, although not to be-little your post.
I have felt the presence of the spirit of the cabbage eheh.

[fishy]

heh...I've been struggling to write a decent response too.

At a physical level, it's obvious to me that the relationship between the plant and the person is biochemical. By lucky chance, the plant produces a compound that happens to fit receptor sites in our brains and, briefly, change the way they work. Considering also that we can synthesize a myriad similar and novel psychoactive compounds, and I'm afraid I don't see any spirit or mystery in the method of action of this process just good luck and some complicated organic chemistry which I personally do not understand, but I know there are plenty of chemists out there who do. I don't 'believe' the spirit is in the plant, or synthetic compound, so to speak.

But this is as far as you can go with science - a brain scan or EEG showing that the brain is working differently. What science cannot do is explain what it feels like to be conscious, let alone to experience some of these interesting molecules. This is the realm of direct experience and the I think this is where the 'spirit' happens. I suspect that, given another million or so years of evolution (provided we don't self-destruct in the meantime) we may be able to achieve these mental states without the plant or whatever*. But none of this makes the experience any less a special and unique part of the human experience. So, to try and answer the question:

So just what / where is this spirit in plants? Or is it the spirit in the chemistry?

...I'd have to say neither. The spirit is within us.

* Maybe some already can?

[ParasitesOfTheSoul]

A synergistic perceived/observed mental phenomena of emergent complexity

[mrmojorisin]

Wow! I've been thinking about this all day ! What does it mean?
In order to synergise, there's gotta be at least two of 'em.....aint there? But two of what?
Arrrgh!!! My brain hurts !

[ParasitesOfTheSoul]

With regards to the use of the word 'spirit'. Inevitably the interpretation is subject to cultural context and the mentality of an individual.
In explanation of my choice of description.
When using the word synergistic I suppose it can mean right down to the microscopic, or at the level of plant and animal agents having a complimentary effect with each other.
Mental phenomena basically meaning any~ thought, perception, sensation, emotion, generated.
Emergence is the way complex systems and patterns arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple interactions.
The ability of the whole to generate/express/display something else/more than the sum of its parts.
Typical examples of emergent behaviour include flocking animals, swarm intelligence, animal markings, neural networks, bacterial infection, mass hysteria, selfish genes, evolution, economies, financial markets, town planning, team building, the web, consciousness.

So the interaction between chemistry or plant and the human condition, as part of a system. Lets say the result being a heightened state of consciousness. Can be seen to be or part of, a novel emergent phenomena. After all, normal consciousness itself is seen to be emergent.
Emergence appears to be a fundamental property of the universe.
The temptation is to compare the possible profundity of an "induced"experience. With say, that of having had further insight into this observable, universally creative process. Maybe i'm just imagining things. Nevertheless, From our present position the view can be fascinating.
No doubt this will come across as over simplistic and to some extent I am reiterating what has already been said.

PS.
Stigmergy is the term used to describe the workings of emergent behaviour.
An interesting example of this is the architecture and morphogenesis in the mound of macrotermitine termites. The physiologist Scott Turner has a website concerning this: http://www.esf.edu/EFB/turner/termite/termhome.htm
Turner writes "Functionally, these mounds are devices for capturing wind energy to power active ventilation of the nest. They are adaptive structures, continually molded by the termites to maintain the nest atmosphere. This ability confers on the colony emergent homeostasis, the regulation of the nest environment by the collective activities of the inhabitants". He goes on to include the concept of extended organism. In this example the implication is that the mounds are effectively "accessory organs of gas exchange." and "Macrotermes colonies host a remarkable symbiotic relationship with a basidiomycete fungus, Termitomyces."Termitomyces culture in a Macrotermes nest aids in the breakdown of cellulose and lignin into a more nutritious compost which serves as the termites actual food. The fungus garden is, therefore, a kind of extracorporeal digestive system, to which termites have 'outsourced' cellulose digestion. The fungi also play a significant role in the emergence of social homeostasis in Macrotermes colonies. Indeed, in a remarkable way, it is not the termites that cultivate the fungi, but the fungi that are cultivating the termites."

Although stigmergy can be used to logically explain the workings of emergent behaviour.
The results are often unpredictable. This challenges the reductionist theory of being able to explain any event in the world by reducing it down to fundamental particles, laws and forces. Stuart Kauffman a theoretical biologist and complex systems researcher, suggests reductionism is not wrong but incomplete. He expounds the view that such phenomena "cannot be deduced from physics, have causal powers of their own, and therefore are emergent real entities in the universe." This creative process of emergence, Kauffman contends, "is so stunning, so overwhelming, so worthy of awe, gratitude and respect, that it is god enough for many of us. God, a fully natural God, is the very creativity in the universe."

[Sternendiener]

"SPIRIT"? Is there liquor in plants??? The whole idea of what is real has to be reworked.

[Sternendiener]

Ok. I did not read it all through but... From one perspective one should leave he objects of the senses aside. "Beliefs" are quite irrelevant. One first works with the recognition of objects and also identification. The understanding of reality can simply be said be based in the mental and spiritual constitution. I believe that most basic knowledge is presented in psychology, wherefrom one can advance to more detailed understandings. I have discharged several things but now read written information in a quite different manner, and thus am able to deal with most subjects, efficiently discharging what has no value.